S10E3 - Teddy Bear Lawyer With a Buddha Head; Because Creative Freedom Needs a Hug!!

What happens when a theater kid with a knack for sound engineering becomes the legal guardian of creative minds everywhere? 

In this engaging conversation with Gordon Firemark, known professionally as "The Podcast Lawyer," we explore the fascinating journey of a professional who defies the typical lawyer stereotype.

Gordon reveals how a chance suggestion from a college professor led him from theater production to law school, ultimately creating a practice that perfectly blends his creative background with legal expertise. Rather than adopting the grinding schedule many attorneys fall into, he's crafted a career that prioritizes family dinners and personal boundaries while still serving his clients with excellence.

The discussion dives deep into the challenges creators face in today's rapidly evolving digital landscape, particularly with AI and content protection. 

Gordon offers invaluable insights on how to protect your creative work without feeling caged by legal concerns: "If a creator feels they're in a cage, we need to look at what can change to free them." His perspective on AI-generated content is particularly thought-provoking as he explains why "the value is in the original work of human authorship" and how creators can navigate these murky waters.

Beyond professional advice, Gordon shares personal revelations about finding balance, the importance of therapy, and how having children transformed his approach to work. His candid admission about seeking help from a Buddhist monk therapist during difficult times offers a refreshing glimpse at vulnerability from a successful professional.

Whether you're a podcaster, content creator, or anyone navigating the intersection of creativity and business, Gordon's parting advice is gold: "Think of it like a business, even if you're in it as a hobby." Connect with Gordon at gordonfiremark.com or as @gordonfiremark on social media (IG) to learn more about his webinars and resources for creators.

Transcript

Welcome to Talk Shit With P

Speaker 1 0:00

I think we're recording. Hi shit talkers, welcome to Talks your Wippy. And I am your host, paula the shit talker. I mean, don't we all like talking shit anyways? Are you a creator? If so, you are in the right space. Talks your Wippy is a place where we showcase and celebrate the talents, works and stories of creative minds from all walks of life, while also raising awareness for mental health through providing a supportive space to share their stories, insights and experiences. We will be discussing creative journeys, the high lows and the ways we manage our mental health through it all. Join us each week for inspiring conversations, useful resources and a community of like-minded creators as we dive into the minds of creative beings to explore their journeys, struggles and triumphs. So, whether you're a seasonal creative or just starting out, talksheep repeats the podcast for you. Talkshell with P is the podcast for you. All right, good morning everybody. It's very early in the morning, especially for Gordon, but we got the podcast lawyer in the house. Hi Gordon, welcome to TalkShell with P.

Speaker 2 1:19

Hi, paula, it's about time we got to talk shit.

Speaker 1 1:22

I know I mean we always talk shit, but it's finally time we talk shit on shit. I know I mean we always talk shit, but it's finally time we talk shit on talk shit with me there we go people don't know.

Speaker 1 1:32

Okay, for people who don't know, one minute, see, I thought I was gonna be prepared. Um, garden is the guy keeping creators out of legal trouble while living a life that doesn't look like the typical lawyer grind. Because you really don't have the typical lawyer grind. No, definitely not. Yeah, I've seen some lawyers. They don't look as good as you do.

Speaker 2 1:55

Well, thank you, I think You're welcome.

Speaker 1 1:59

So, Garland, you are known as the podcast lawyer. Out of curiosity, how did this name come about? Because I also know you were also known as the theater lawyer.

Speaker 2 2:10

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 2:12

So yeah, quick history on that 34 years now and uh, um, when I started uh, looking for ways to market my practice, uh, I had already sort of established myself as a theater expert in the uh in that field and uh, and also doing independent film and TV. But when I started marketing my practice by creating a podcast, I decided I needed to do some due diligence, just make sure I was following the rules and and get doing things by the book. And what I found out was there was no book, so I wrote one and uh, did the research, wrote the book, and that's how you become known as an expert and uh, the branding as the podcast lawyer is just something that has worked out really nicely for me. So, uh, uh, really tells you, tells you what I do and positions me as the guy.

Speaker 1 3:09

So it's great and it's just like sometimes I forget your name is Goda. I'm like you're not a podcast lawyer and they're like who's that? I'm like, oh shit, his name is, you know, the bald white guy. Yes, well, paul. Most people always call me, like in conferences, when people want to know who Paula is. It's like the short girl with color in her hair, or if I'm not bald, like I always have some sort of color in my hair, so you know. But I love your bald head Like for me it feels like a lucky charm, like I always just have hair, so you know. But I love your body like for me it feels like a lucky charm, like I always just have to.

Speaker 2 3:48

You know yeah, well, with the buddha you rub the belly and I guess with me you rub my head right exactly, it would be so weird.

Speaker 1 3:55

Like even even with rubbing your head, people find it so weird. So imagine if I started rubbing your, your belly we'd have some splaining to do.

Speaker 1 4:07

Go to HR Podcasts, will start having conferences. We'll start having HR department Just for that. So clearly you were not born in a blazer. We know you have a theater background from the age of five. Oh my God, I don't remember if I knew anything at the age of five, probably eating sweets. I knew how to open chocolate wrappers. That was a talent of mine. That's why my teeth are the way they are. Let's talk more about the pivot. So you started at the end. This season of mine we, uh, I've shared it's my final season, for right now is um pivoting and changing direction. So this season is mostly about that. You know, pivoting, changing rebranding and you being in the business of theater and entertainment, I know there's a lot of that. You yourself pivot from theater to law, so let's talk a little bit about that. What made you be like, ah, no more theater, I'm getting into law. Like, like, how did that two collide?

Speaker 2 5:13

Well, you know, as I, as you said, I I did discover theater at the very young age of five and I got very excited about it and and became an avid. Well, my family took me to see a lot of theater as a young kid and then, by the time I was about 12, 13 years old, I was getting into some low-grade trouble with friends of mine and the junior high principal called me aside and said I want you to run the lights and sound for the school's variety show. And so I did that and that led to doing more of those kinds of things. And in high school I was the sound man for the theater and actually I was the school sound man and by my senior year I was working professionally in theaters and theme parks around Los Angeles as a sound and lighting technician. So I started college expecting to be in the theater major, but that was a performance-oriented program and, as hard as it may be for you to believe, I did not want to be on stage. I didn't want to be in the spotlight, I was all about being behind the scenes. And so I ended up shifting my major several times from theater to photography, to journalism, and then ended up in radio, television and film production, which was really the obvious thing from the start.

Speaker 2 6:42

I just don't know why I didn't do it right away, but in my senior year I had sort of finished up all the coursework required for the major and so I started taking some of the graduate levels programs that the master's and PhD students were taking, and I ended up in one called government regulation of media, and I remember the professor was a woman named Deanna Robinson and I was doing very well in the class I think I had the top score even though I was the only undergraduate in the class and she pulled me aside one day toward the end of the semester and said if you haven't, you should think about going to law school. And I hadn't, and I didn't plan to, and I laughed it off at the time. But a little while later I was applying for graduate programs and I thought, okay, why not? And I took the test and I applied for law school and I got into law school, but I didn't get into film school. So the idea of law school was there.

Speaker 2 7:37

I didn't go right away. I took a year out of well, I started out to work in television and, uh, it was only after the writer's guild went on strike in the late eighties, that that told me that I should look for something that might have a little more job security, and that's the law school thing. And so I went to law school and, uh, with my background it was pretty clear from the beginning that I was going to be doing entertainment law uh, even though that made it very hard to find a work, you know, position, a job, and. But I ended up, you know, getting where I wanted to go and I've been practicing as a solo attorney most of my career now, since the early 90s.

Speaker 1 8:18

So Look at that, for somebody to say it was hard to get a job, but also you kind of humbly bragged about doing it solo Because it can be easy, especially being in LA Right.

Speaker 2 8:33

Well, yeah, I had a job.

Speaker 1 8:35

It was entertainment, but it was awesome.

Speaker 2 8:38

Yeah, I did have a job working in an entertainment litigation firm a small firm, briefly but that didn't work out so well for them or for me, so I decided to leave before I was, you know, before I killed myself, basically.

Speaker 1 8:57

Why do I somehow wish I got to hang out with the younger version Like I enjoy hanging out with this version of you? You?

Speaker 2 9:05

would have liked me back then. That was one of the reasons that I got out of litigation is that I didn't like me when I was doing it. I got very adversarial and I had a hard time turning it off. In the end of the day, that was just not good for personal relationships or my mental status, I feel like I attract assholes.

Speaker 1 9:22

Probably at that time I would have really enjoyed you, but to a certain level.

Speaker 2 9:28

Who knows, it's possible. Of course I'm a lot older than you. You were a baby when I was doing this.

Speaker 1 9:35

Let's not do that Old enough. But it's funny how the story in itself has so many pivoting and sometimes you don't know how the redirection is taking you, but then it ends up taking you to the life you actually wanted without knowing that you know.

Speaker 1 9:51

So you know, um, I've done a lot of jobs while trying to find my dream job. You gotta, you can't just stay home. I'm the person. I'm gonna do whatever I can because the bill's got to be paid right. So I worked a lot in retail and I learned all these things. I didn't know how I was going to use them, what would come to them, but now that I'm starting my own stuff, some of the things are very clear of the do's and don'ts. So like, oh yeah, I don't want to be like that company because they used to do run in this way and do this. So I'm curious, with your sound engineering background and now being a podcaster, running your own podcast and entertainment, like what skills from those days that still sneak up to you in work life right now, even in your normal life?

Speaker 2 10:39

Well, obviously the skills and understanding.

From Theater Kid to Podcast Lawyer

Speaker 1 10:43

I mean, look at how you sound right now. Yeah, look at how you sound right now. Yeah, look at how you sound right now. That's brilliant. I can listen to you talk all day.

Speaker 2 10:50

Well, I'll give genetics most of the credit for that I was born with. Well, I wasn't born sounding like this, but can you imagine this voice coming out of a baby?

Speaker 2 11:01

I mean anything is possible but uh, yeah, by the time I was in junior high, I would answer the telephone back when, when the household had one phone for the whole family and, uh, people would think it was my dad answering the phone. So, uh, the deep voice is just mostly genetics, but, um, but yeah, I've, I've practiced and learned to learn to sound good learn to and I, of course, knowing how microphones and audio equipment work, it's been a sort of a priority for me to get good sound and, uh, yeah, the other skills that that come in from the television production world, from the audio production world really is, world, from the audio production world really is, is just being able to stick to a timeline and being um, organized and having my thoughts planned out so that I can do my creation. But also, as a lawyer, that's helpful because you need to structure your arguments and and make your point.

Speaker 1 12:00

So it's funny how they come hand in hand, like what's like two sides of the coin. You need kind of both of them. So perfection, perfect pairing. So when you jumped from production into law, right, I'm curious to know what did you think success would look like? And how is the picture change? Because I remember I think I've mentioned it to you that my dad is a lawyer and and both me and my brother quit law school after like half way into the year, like we didn't even finish our year. But also the idea I had of the success of a lawyer comes from the shows and the books I've read, like John Christian, and the shows show you how fun being a lawyer is and I like the argument parts because I like arguing and I like heated conversations and I like debating and I like just pissing people off, like Harry Spencer and the Lincoln, like all these people give you this idea of they. Really isn't that.

Speaker 2 12:58

Well, that's actually one of the things that should have been a signal when I was younger that I could argue a point right or wrong and I would just argue the other side into submission. Whether I was younger, that you know, I could argue a point right or wrong and I would just argue the other side into submission, whether I was right or wrong about the actual facts of the situation. And so you know, my parents once I said I was going to go to law school, they said, of course you're going to go, you know.

Speaker 1 13:16

It's the obvious thing.

Speaker 2 13:18

Yeah, I come from a family of healthcare people, but for me, law was a better choice. I love the intellectual stimulation of it. That's really what it is for me but and and and getting to help people and help creators, because I really do believe that the ability to share a message, to, to make an impact and, and you know, have an influence over how the world operates is important, and everybody has something important to say and should be able to share it. So my mission really is to help make that possible and allow folks to create and feel safe and protected while they do it, so they're not going to end up in some kind of trouble or some kind of a disagreements with people. So that's just sort of my mission and purpose here.

Speaker 1 14:08

I love that, speaking of creators right, helping protect creators and stuff Podcasters. We love to push boundaries. I feel like most creators I'm not going to just put podcasters, but also, you know, we love to push boundaries. And how do you balance protecting creators without putting them in a cage of fear Because again, when you hear things about you can get sued?

Speaker 2 14:36

Yeah, Well, yeah, here in the States we're very fortunate that the First Amendment is a very robust protection for free speech and free press. So that's really our both first and last line of defense is you know, you can't be. Well, it's not that you can't say things and have consequences. You're free to say what you want, but the consequences are something you need to be thinking about. So my goal is to educate and inform creators so they understand the boundaries and, as you're right, every you know being confrontational, being challenging, coming up with a viewpoint or a message that is a little shocking to people is often the best way to get their attention and get them to start thinking about other ways of looking at situations. So it is important that we can push those boundaries, but you have to first know where they are and what they are, and then we can examine ways to expand the freedoms that we have.

Speaker 2 15:41

So, yeah, I mean it is hard to well look. If a creator feels that they're in a cage, then we need to look at what is it about this situation that can change, that can free you from that cage, and it may be as simple as as uh, just not using explicit language. Or or uh, uh, not naming individual by name, but, you know, identifying them, uh, more broadly, so they don't come after you for defamation, those kinds of things. So there's always workarounds. Um, I mean, I guess, unless, unless you want guess, unless you want to get involved in something really really heinous like child pornography or something like that no excuses for child pornography. Boundaries are important.

Speaker 1 16:24

Boundaries are important, but it's so true about the ways around it.

Speaker 1 16:29

I'm a person who sometimes speaks way too much of my mind on social media and I've learned that, uh, it's okay, yeah, to speak your mind, but also you have to to realize that once you put it out there, you can't take it back right. Yeah, I had to learn that, like I is. Is this necessary? Like do you really need to say this? Because if it's not gonna do anything, it's still, it's gonna be out there and who knows, like we have seen how people's tweets come up 10 years later and still people are going about a tweet they wrote 20 years ago and I think maybe that's why I stopped tweeting and I also shut down my facebook, because those are the places that were mostly getting me in trouble. Yeah, because because I get triggered about what I see. So I was like, okay, if I'm not going to just look and keep it moving, then maybe I don't need to be on this platform until I can control my emotions or the need to not just say whatever the fuck I want to say.

Speaker 2 17:29

Yeah, you know it's interesting. You know, generationally we have different ideas about privacy. I'm sure you and I think about it a little differently, and I know my kids think about it very differently than I do, and my parents and grandparents thought about it differently. Privacy is one of these things that has to start with us. If you want something private, then don't share it, don't tweet it out to the world. It's amazing how many people think well, you know, I can talk about me, but you can't talk about me, and that's just the way it works.

Speaker 1 17:58

I'm like once you put your business out there, it's for everybody to talk about it.

Speaker 2 18:05

You can say people in my business when you're the one who put your business. Hey, if you don't want people to know you wear polka dotted underpants, don't hang them on the clothesline outside, where everybody can see Polka dotted. I love to watch you wear underpants into an interview.

Speaker 1 18:21

No, I mean, am I doing it to ask you to stand up, Gordon? Because I'm wondering why.

Speaker 2 18:27

Uh no.

Speaker 1 18:32

Okay, moving on, rap shit with P is more than just a name. It's what we do. We make visions come alive, from branding and merch to curated gifting and virtual assistant services. We help creatives, entrepreneurs and businesses show up bigger, bolder and better. So if you're ready to level up your vision, connect with us on IG at Rapshit with P, or Rapshit with P at gmailcom S-H-I-T-W-I-T-H-P. Rapshitwithp at gmailcom or Rapshitwithp on Instagram Rapshitwithp. Where access meets energy, where passion meets execution and where every detail gets wrapped with love and excitement. So here's to season 10, the final season of Talk.

Speaker 1 19:36

She Weepy With speaking of protection and everything right, with AI and digital remixing blowing up, and every day, ai has become a conversation and a conversation. At one point, really, when AI Talk started, I thought it's just going to die out, and then it really isn't. It's becoming more, and I'm a person who now relies on my chat GPT. No, it saves my life y'all. It saves me from hiring people on doing things which, virtually, chat GPT helps me to do so. Now that I even have the money to hire people, gordon can tell you I bother him about my law, contracts and shit, and I haven't paid him yet. But don't be like me. Okay, don't be like me. Pay your people. I just have a long overdue time with Gordon, that's all. What legal gray area do you see coming that creators at least ready for with this ai and?

Pivoting Careers and Finding Purpose

Speaker 2 20:39

well, it's not so much a gray area as just a a, an unexpected area, you know. But the thing to remember is that when? Well, there's a couple things to remember. First of all, the way these AI systems have been trained is by basically going out and slurping up everything that's been on the internet for the last, you know, 40 years or whatever it is, and without permission in most instances. So there are some lawsuits cooking right now about you know, what's going to happen with owners of copyrighted material that has been absorbed by these systems for training? And so that's one side, the training side. The other side is the outputs.

Speaker 2 21:22

You know the law is pretty clear that the output of a machine is not entitled to any kind of copyright or protection or ownership rights. So the only way to own material that comes out of an AI is to keep it to yourself, and even then there's no telling the AI is not going to share it with somebody else anyway. So that's hard. You can't own what the AI creates unless you've contributed a lot of original material to the prompting part of it. We have yet to determine exactly what the threshold for that is, but the law is pretty clear it has to be a human author in order to be entitled to copyright protection.

Speaker 2 22:00

The other component of the output side is if you use an AI and you ask it to create something and that something comes out looking or sounding or reading very similarly to something that is already protected under copyright, so that the work, the output, isn't original material, it's copied. Well, you could still be sued for copyright infringement even though you're not the one who made the offending similar copy. The AI is just a tool and you know, same as if you smash a window with your hammer you can't blame the hammer right. So you're still responsible for the actions you take and that liability can be significant. So we still, as users of AI, we still need to be thoughtful about how we use it and whether we use it verbatim or whether we go through it carefully and and you know analyze where did this stuff come from. So the AIs are getting better at being transparent about that, but it's a long. We've got a long way to go.

Speaker 1 23:04

We sure do. I love when you said keep it to yourself. I mean, have you seen how social media right now is mostly AI created and personal creation is like you're telling somebody to create all this amazing stuff. Social media right now is mostly AI created than personal creation. It's like you're telling somebody to create all this amazing stuff and then just leave it in your folder over there.

Speaker 2 23:22

No, I mean the point is look, I think the value is in the original work of authors, human authorship.

Speaker 2 23:31

There's a reason they call the AI stuff slop um because it's just not as as compelling and I think audiences pick up on it even if they don't know for sure. Oh, this is from AI. Uh, right now there's still the gee whiz factor of the AI stuff. Oh my gosh, I can't believe they made that baby talk. You know, uh, and dance with a chicken, or whatever. Uh, some of you know, and dance with a chicken or whatever.

Speaker 1 23:54

Some of those videos are hilarious, but and they're cute, but they don't really add anything to society.

Speaker 2 23:59

Yeah, so that's the kind of thing we have to remind ourselves, and I think the best thing that we, as creators, can do is not rely too too heavily on AI to do our work for us. Use it as a tool, like I said. You know, like photoshop, it does not replace the job of the photographer who has an eye for what looks good. Same thing with ai we have to bring our own sensibilities and and originality to things exactly, and I this.

Speaker 1 24:28

I was one of the few people who was so excited when YouTube started saying they're not going to pay creators who are like AI creators, because I feel like, yes, they perfect it, maybe they're taking time, but there's a different thing with originality, because all the AI shit when I see it on my timeline, I feel like they all look the same. I'm like you can't even tell the difference. I miss seeing like normal shit, like you know. Put your messy self out there. Let's see everybody is trying to be a creator now by using ai. Ai is doing most of the job. You're literally just directing it. So are you really a creator, like no? So kudos to youtube to saying that we are paying because there are people who are really putting their time and energy on their work, on their original work and perfecting it, and I think that's what it should remain.

Speaker 1 25:17

I mean they have fun. Every now and then it's okay, play around, create something fun, but yo, the timelines are just exhausting these days.

Speaker 2 25:26

That's true.

Speaker 1 25:27

And they all look the same. I'm like, oh yeah, no, but okay, now let's skip the titles right and talk about gordon the human. You know this bold, incredible. People don't know how much of a teddy bear gordon is. Y'all like like me and amanda, just love our teddy. Teddy daddy, teddy Daddy we keep naming him all these names every now and then. So, outside of podcasting and law, right? You're a father, a brother, a husband, a son, an uncle all those amazing great-bothering friends, a partner. How has Gordon, the person, grown the most over the last five years? And I say five years because that's how long I've known Gordon. You might have known me later, but I started the podcasting world in 2020, and I saw you speak on the podcast Vachos. Since then, I've known you, so I'm saying those five years.

Speaker 2 26:30

Okay, well, that's interesting. The last five years have been sort of interesting because that also coincides with the pandemic. I think I've gotten just more chill generally over the last. Well, over the last 20 or 30 years, but these last five in particular. You know, I'm just sort of more and more comfortable in my skin, more and more comfortable with how life is working out. Not that I'm not ambitious, but I'm sort of more and more comfortable in my skin, more and more comfortable with how life is working out. Not that I'm not ambitious, but I'm sort of able to find some contentment in things and not feel like I have to always push for the next thing, for more of whatever. And it's interesting. You know, I do some coaching and the brand on the coaching is more, better, faster. And here I say I just heard myself say well, that's not as important to me anymore, but I certainly know how to show people how to achieve more, better, faster, and that's part of my purpose in life as well.

Speaker 2 27:25

What else In the last few years? I think it's a constant evolution. I think you know it's a constant evolution. I've sort of found my voice in uh, uh, protecting and educating and forming and and helping uh, creators especially, you know, protect themselves. It's what I've always done, but I'm approaching it a much more differently now, as a really just a a way of serving the world, the community, and advancing that idea. That I was saying is that everybody should have the right to share their ideas and make change in increments just from the words we say and the things we create.

Speaker 1 28:03

I love that. I love how you talked about the ambition and being content. I feel like and that's one thing I'll be grateful for 2020. I feel like before that, everybody was just moving, like me myself, like I felt like I needed to be busy, but I wasn't really being productive. I wasn't really like I was just you know, and then eventually the world slowed down and it forced us to slow down and I feel like most people really realize what matters and like, yes, ambition is good and stuff, but I think the purpose behind that ambition also matters.

Speaker 1 28:36

So these days, I'm so okay with having slow days, with being lazy, like things which I wouldn't have, like I'd beat myself up like why are you being lazy? Like there's all these things to do, but I'm like the mind has to rest, the body has to rest and sometimes you're not producing anything. When you're pretending you have to be busy, you're not going to be productive. So I love that. I think that's one thing I also got from the pandemic and I'm grateful, so like I'm at peace. Yes, I know I still need to grind hard, but I'm no longer on that hustle culture.

Speaker 2 29:10

Right, right. I mean you hustle when you have to, but you have to remember that there's more life yeah, yeah, and I hustle productively.

Speaker 1 29:21

I don't just hustle to hustle like I see, where is this worth my ass or my grind? If it's not, no, I'm sorry. It has to make sense. So what's something you used to downplay that you now lean into proudly, like I remember when people used to tell me I'm too emotional, right? So I used to pretend I'm a tough person because I was tired of hearing oh, you're too emotional and I'm a crybaby. Like I might be mad and cursing at you, but I'm crying. It's not that because I'm giving you my tears. No, like when I get angry, I cry when I'm happy. I cry when I'm sad, like, like I have so close tears. That's why sometimes, if I'm arguing with somebody, I have to walk away because I'm gonna start crying. Well, so I used to downplay my emotions, but now I lean into them. There's a reason why I'm surrounded with the love I'm surrounded, or created, because I'm leaning into those. So what about you? Any well?

Speaker 2 30:18

yeah, similarly, I think, uh, it's a little longer than five years, but I've really gotten much more in touch with my feelings and, and you know it's it shapes who I am, uh, and I'm okay with showing the world who I am really, and and uh, as I said, you know, when I was in college I didn't want to be on stage or in the spotlight, and now I'm very comfortable being on camera, on microphone, on stages and, um, uh, there's a, there's a part of me that is nourished by, uh, that opportunity to, to be in front of an audience and share my ideas and thoughts and hopefully get some applause when I do it too.

AI, Creativity, and Legal Gray Areas

Speaker 1 30:58

So it's fun you do. You do it demo. Like I said, we were listening to a podcast movement together and you were speaking in the room literally behind the one I was, and there was so much commotion happening I had to leave my room to come and peep and I saw it was Gordon on stage. I'm like am I really surprised? No, to continue. And then I remember also later. So this is going to be a little bit sad because we recently lost Todd, but you guys also shared the stage, which I have those pictures outside. It was like a big panel. I think that's the biggest panel I've seen so far. It was incredible and it was the longest. I believe I think you guys had almost two hours or something for that, yeah, we were on stage.

Speaker 2 31:47

one day I'll tell you to say it's the biggest panel. I'll say maybe by weight, with me and Todd on it.

Speaker 1 31:54

I mean normally I think I've seen five people at the max, right, but it was incredible. The lineup was very. It was a great lineup because you all feel there and people were interactive. Every time I came, people were asking questions, because you can tell how a panel is doing by how interactive people are. Sometimes, yeah, you might be that good that people don't need to ask, but they also need to look interested and sleepy. But you guys looked alive. I kept on saying why do I have to run to my room? Because I really wanted to be out there.

Speaker 2 32:31

Well, credit where it's due. That was Jen and Tracy from the Podcast Professionals Association who put that panel together and they did a fantastic job.

Speaker 1 32:41

So I'm grateful to them for doing that. And just to speak real quick, as I say, we lost Todd. I feel like this year we have lost a few members of the podcast firm, so I just want to do a quick check-in. How are you doing? We have lost a few members of the podcast, so I just want to do a quick check in how are you doing?

Speaker 2 32:54

You know it was a blow to the gut when when Todd passed and I heard the word from from a mutual friend and it's been gratifying to see the outpouring of of love and and everybody sharing their stories about Todd. But you know it makes you. He and I were roughly the same age he was about a year older than me and that makes you think when people your generation are passing away suddenly, surprisingly and you know I try to take care of myself- but as you get older, the body reminds you that you're not so young anymore.

Speaker 1 33:33

Yeah, you can't be partying with us until 3. I'll tell you.

Speaker 2 33:39

That's one thing I've learned is is that fear of missing out on some of the parties, some of the whatever. I just go to bed now. It's time, I'm tired, I'm going to be a mess tomorrow if I stay up late, and you just have to let go of that fear. You're not going to miss anything super critical, and if you do, someone will tell you about it shit with me.

Speaker 1 33:58

Yeah, uh, maybe one day I one day, one day I will share the first story he told me. I think I told you one time when we were and that was last year in podcast movement, when we're in dc, and it's funny I also have a video of because I realized I didn't take any pictures with him this time, which is weird for me, because I take pictures like the first thing that comes out of me is my camera, but I had a video. You remember last time? You see, we all stayed an extra night. Most of us left on Friday, so Thursday night we were sitting at the hotel before we went for a walk.

Speaker 1 34:45

I think it was after we came back and the bus crowd people were there, todd was there, brian from Lipton, so I have a video of that. I was like, oh my God, it's nice. But the last thing he told me when I was leaving Podcast Movement, I was like see you at Podfest? And I was like will you, though? Will you? Because in my head I'm the one not sure if I'm going to Podfest, but I didn't know. I was like I was really saying goodbye to him because in my head, I, in my head, I'm not going to see a podcast, but now it's gone.

Speaker 2 35:15

I really won't be singing a podcast whether I go or not. Yeah, well, my heart goes out to his family and all his friends and the people he worked with. He was a leader with the Blueberry and the company and you know there's a void there that I think the people from Blueberry will fill it nicely and the company will go on and Todd's legacy will continue, but it's definitely a vacancy and a void.

Speaker 1 35:41

It is. The community lost their kind soul and it's going to be hard, but you know that's life. We're all going to die sadly, but our rest in peace, todd. So before we move on to the final section of my, my, my, my, this conversation, oh, have we started already. We're recording why are you being like joe literally joe. After we finished recording, I was like, wait, were we recording? I mean it's a fair question. Right, it is a fair question.

Speaker 1 36:14

It's one of the things people just hanging out talking shit, exactly because this is what we normally do every now and then. So when was the last time life humbled you or made you check yourself?

Speaker 2 36:26

last time life humbled me or made me check myself. Well, I have. I have a 12 year old son, so that may be measured in minutes. You know he's always got something to say. That you know, just you know, reminds me where I belong in the scheme of things. You know I'm just as old. Yeah, kind of Um, yeah, that that's that's always. Always that's where it comes from. You know, if anybody's going to speak your truth, it's going to be your kids.

Speaker 1 37:01

Oh yeah, kids really know how to humble you, and especially, it's always at the wrong time. Maybe this is why I can't have a kid, because I don't need somebody humbling me, right? I can't have a kid because I don't need somebody humbling me.

Speaker 2 37:13

You know there's so much that we train out of our children and training our children to respect and beware of other people's feelings. I think it's very important. But at the same time, what often goes by the wayside then is the sort of the real truth of how they see the world, and that's a shame, because often they have some very interesting perspectives. I'm constantly startled and humbled by my kids' intelligence all three of them and and how their sense of humor, their sense of wonder at what's interesting in the world. You know they're, they're really curious and and all of them it's. It's a great trait to have and I hope they never lose that.

Speaker 1 37:54

So it's always nice to see life through a kid's vision, especially kids these days, like they remind us, because we are so tainted by so much shit that we have seen or been through, so sometimes we forget certain things that we hear, and this is why maybe sometimes I hang out with older people or younger people, cause I'm like I only know on my, on my generation, right, I need to see it from different visions. And but you said you have three kids, I believe. So you have a 12 year old son.

Speaker 2 38:27

I have a 15 year old daughter and a 17 year old son Okay, yeah, yeah and two dogs and three cats, and my wife and I, and and a house that is always in some state of chaos when you lock yourself in there, you can't hear shit, like there's no dog, there's no cat, there's nothing. They just soundproof that room, or what it's not soundproof if you listen well, the microphone does a nice job of not picking up too much in the background, but the dogs are barking in the other room.

Speaker 1 39:02

All right. So you know, since I am big on mental health and taking care of your mental health and you being a lawyer in entertainment, where things are constantly changing, you have to work with your clients. Was there a moment you thought, if I keep working like this, I'll burn out? And if so, what pivot kept you sane?

Speaker 2 39:34

Well, there have been moments like that over the years, um, actually less tied to well I shouldn't say that somewhat tied to work, but also tied to my personal life, where I had real crises of confidence and uh, um and yeah, the pivot well, you know, look if, if you're feeling troubled, go get some help, go talk to somebody. That's what really made a difference for me was getting some psychological help and having therapy and someone to talk with. It was an interesting guy. My first therapist that I went to was also a Buddhist monk and, you know, taught me meditation and taught me a lot about myself and just getting in touch with those feelings and things. And that was really an important thing. Remembering, you know, it ain't all about me and it ain't all that important when you really look at things, the scheme of things.

Speaker 1 40:31

I think they wanted to show off now because I say they were too quiet. Now I can hear them.

Speaker 2 40:39

Yeah, the dogs and lawnmower outside. It's.

Personal Growth and Life Balance

Speaker 1 40:42

I love it, but also I want to. I want to say you know, most men are always kind of, I think, how the the worries to be strong, so they're not quick to share the emotions. Even when you tell them go speak to somebody like that feels like a uh, a hit on the gut or something. So I love that you went to do it, uh, for yourself, because I am a firm believer in therapy. I think I've become a calmer person because of therapy, because, god for me, if I had not gone to therapy, maybe I'd be in jail by now by smacking people. I don't know, but therapy does help. So I love that for you.

Speaker 1 41:19

So you say you built a practice that supports your life and that comes with a lot of not a lot, but some boundaries or habits. So which would you say were the hardest to set to make this real? Because it's so easy for people to say you've got to have boundaries or you've got to like strict rules for yourself, like, even when we talk about budget, right, you can create a budget by sticking to our budget is the problem. You can create boundaries, but sticking to the boundaries is the problem. Following it is a. So what was that for you?

Speaker 2 41:53

well, I mean a lot. A big part of it is the discipline to show up and do the work on a day-to-day basis. You know, I don't have a boss, that's, you know, expecting things of me per se. I mean, I guess I have my family and I have my clients, uh, but you know, when you work out of a home and I've I've worked from a home office for a long time now um, I didn't at the beginning, and having an office to go to was definitely part of that boundary setting. And look, it's daytime, it's work time, I'm supposed to be here and and and there are people around who are going to notice and and maybe judge me if I'm not. I got over that part pretty quickly, but and and I, you know, since I've been working from home, and I, you know, since I've been working from home, the distractions are many and varied, and you know, not the least of which is the kitchen and the television.

Speaker 1 42:44

And the bed.

Speaker 2 42:45

And the bed, exactly, yeah, and so it's really just a matter of being disciplined and remembering okay, I've got work to do, it's time to get to it. But the flip side of that is also recognizing when I'm just not at my best and maybe I need to take a break and rest a bit so that I can recharge the mental batteries that I need to do my work well. What else is a boundary that's important? Well for me. That's important Well for me. The boundary since I've had kids has been the workday has a finite end. It ends at five or six o'clock and from then on I'm available to the family for for you know, to be there for dinner. I actually do most of the cooking in our house, and I didn't say it was good cooking, it's just cooking.

Speaker 1 43:36

I mean food is food, you're going to eat it. I didn't say it was good cooking, it's just cooking.

Speaker 2 43:40

Food is food.

Speaker 1 43:40

You're going to eat it, I don't have to cook it.

Speaker 2 43:43

Yes, exactly, and um, so being there for them to sit down for a family dinner every night a lot of lawyers don't get to say that because they're working 15, 16, 18 hour days and um, so that that's always been important to me is, you know, to be available to my family and to witness their growing up, the kids growing up, rather than where did the time go?

Speaker 1 44:06

And some going to college and stuff.

Speaker 2 44:08

Yeah, yeah, I mean we're starting to think about that with the oldest right now and I mean it's a conceptually, it's really hard to get our head around, but it is what it is. But also, you know, taking weekends and and having my nights off is is part of that. Recharging of the batteries and being, you know, sensible about. Yes, it's my, it's my career, it's my business. If I don't do it, nobody's going to do it. I don't do it, nobody's going to do it. But at the same time, it's not the only thing in my life and it's not even nearly the top of the most important things in my life. So keeping it in that perspective is important as well.

Speaker 1 44:47

I love that and you're so right. Since I started working for myself, you know people always be like well, you should work for yourself. It's fun. It really isn't, because I sometimes miss having a boss, because I feel like it was discipline. I got to wake up at a certain time because I'm supposed to show up.

Speaker 1 45:06

Even if I'm working from home, I need to be on my computer At this time. I work through it. But when I'm working for myself, my days are mixed, because sometimes I work late night, so I might work until 4,. My days are mixed because sometimes I work late night, so I might work until 4, 5 am and then the entire day I sleep or rest and I feel like, oh shit, people right now are working, but also I'm like I work that night.

Speaker 2 45:27

And then there are days where you really don't feel like it and sometimes you don't do it because you're like I'm not expected anywhere, but then it's also you don't do the work, nothing's gonna get done because this yeah well, and for me, you know, having clients that are depending on me to get a thing done or to or move a case forward or whatever that's really what drives me and motivates me to to stick with it is people are counting on me and so, uh, I'm here to serve, and if I'm not doing the work, I'm not really serving them. So that's always in the back of my head too.

Speaker 1 46:02

And me too, I'm like because the boundaries I put, like on Thursdays, I don't do meetings on Thursdays because Thursday is my best day and I don't like to be on the phone with people. I don't want to be on the phone with no offense. And then Monday because for some reason I always work Sunday nights because I like to have a Sunday fun day, so I'm probably day drinking on Sunday, chilling by the pool or just branching. So I go to bed early and I wake up like at 11, 12, like midnight, so I'm up and I work. So Mondays I start my days like I don't take meetings until 12 o'clock. That way, even if I go to sleep at five, I can have enough time. I don't have to wake up at 10 to do a meeting. So I think that kind of works on me choosing the days that I feel like I'm more energetic to give to the people. Mondays always suck, so I'm like what?

Speaker 2 46:54

Sure, I did time blocking also, where I have certain hours of certain days that I set aside for certain kinds of projects, so that I know you know on Thursday afternoon when I'm going in to record a podcast episode, that's sort of the only thing I have going at that time and I know I have the freedom to do that because I've gotten the other things done for the week or I've put in my time and in the other trenches I guess you could say I love that.

Speaker 1 47:21

So I'm going to ask you an itch your words question right In all your content and advice giving what's the piece of guidance you use to give or believe that you have since had to itch your words on Nothing?

Speaker 2 47:37

because I'm without flaws.

Speaker 1 47:43

You say that I'm perfect. What do you mean?

Speaker 2 47:46

No, that's a hard one. I'm trying to think have I had to really genuinely eat my words completely? No, I mean.

Speaker 1 47:56

Semi. Like a bite, a like a cookie bite, you know, and somebody's sharing an edible with you and you don't want to take it all because you're not sure what to do, so like you just yeah, I don't know, I think there's.

Speaker 2 48:10

I mean I'm full of myself in my way. I think I'm a humble guy, mostly, um and mostly.

Speaker 1 48:16

You should be full of yourself, thank you.

Speaker 2 48:20

Thank you, eat my word? I don't know. I mean, I think what happens with me is not so much about particular advice that I give. I think I usually give the right advice. Sometimes, though, my reading of people is off, and I'll I'll either assume and a not so nice motive behind something, when it's in fact they're just innocently doing whatever they're doing, and vice versa. I think I'm too easy to trust people, um, and take their word for things, when maybe that's not the smartest way to go, and I've been burned by people taking advantage because I trusted them. So that's sort of like eating your words.

Speaker 1 49:08

You see people, this is the perfect podcast lawyer for you. He barely eats his own words. That's the lawyer you need. He barely eats his own words. That's the lawyer you need. So now comes the classic Talk she With P. Masters question for the final season of Talk she With P. I'm calling this my signature question and I've been asking everybody because it's just fun and I like people showing me with praises or not. You can be mean if you want to, but I wouldn't approve that, you know. But you have known me for quite a while and, as of recently, much deeper, in a deeper level. What was your first impression when you met me versus your impression of me now that you have known me?

Speaker 2 49:53

The first impression of you, Paula, was who is that loud girl?

Speaker 1 50:02

Of course.

Speaker 2 50:03

I mean, you know, and you're petite in stature but a giant in personality and voice, so that hasn't changed my view of you hasn't really changed in that regard. So that hasn't changed my view of you hasn't really changed in that regard. More recently, having gotten to know you more deeply, I've seen more of your emotional side and your, yeah, you're just, you know the things that affect you and you've shared more of your feelings and that's, I feel, blessed and honored that you've done that, so I love you.

Speaker 1 50:42

My, what was the name? Not my teddy bear? My, oh, my god, these nicknames can't stick around anyways. And I'm not even drinking bad wise, I'm drinking red bull, just. Okay so we are going to do the fun wrap up, which is quick questions. You know, simple answers, the podcast, the podcast world would be better if everybody would just.

Speaker 2 51:11

Oh man, if everybody would just share each other's work.

Speaker 1 51:23

So true, so true. Stop sharing those celebrities who don't give a fuck about you. I'm just saying what's one ambition dream you'd be chasing right now if you weren't doing what you love? That has nothing to do with law or podcast.

Speaker 2 51:39

I'd be producing theater, of course.

Speaker 1 51:43

The last one now. If our friendship relationship could be a podcast title or a song title, what would that be title? What would that?

Speaker 2 51:57

be. What would that be if our friendship Jibber Jabber with Gordon and Paula?

Speaker 1 52:09

Jibber Jabber. That's the title I'll put in this episode. Listen up, y'all, I'm about to give you a greatest tip. Okay, y'all, I'm about to give you a greatest tip. Okay, you all know I barely read my dms and god don't get me started on tracking my links. But now I'm low-key, organized, and you want to know why. You want to know what the secret is. Stamp it social, so stamp it social. It's Instagram, linktree and your favorite social media intern had a baby, but with boundaries and vibes, lots of vibes. You get a full dashboard that tracks what people are actually clicking on.

Speaker 1 52:51

Now, wouldn't you like to know that, like I do, and I enjoy it, I've been obsessed with it. Like, for once, I know which post made y'all run to my link and which ones flopped harder than my ex's mixtape, sorry. Plus, here's a kicker, get this right. There's a seven day free trial, because we don't do commitments without a test drive, y'all. And if're feeling spicy or should I say extra spicy use code Paula20, yes, that's P-A-U-L-A-20, for 20% off. A plan every month for life? Yes, forever, ever, ever, ever, forever, ever, ever.

Speaker 1 53:36

So, if you're a content creator, podcaster or just tired of shouting into the void, go check out Stampede Social, because your content deserves better than linking bio with zero context. Again, that's Paula20, p-a-u-l-a 2-0. Because I love you, but I love organized chaos even more. Ula20. Because I love you, but I love organized chaos even more. Don't say I didn't tell you. Don't say I didn't share. Don't say I didn't give you the good good. Don't come back to me complaining because it's right there. Go now. Go get your seven-day free trial. Thank me later. Well, gordon, let the people know where they can find you or if there's anything amazing you got coming up. So if you have anything coming up that you want people to show up for, how people can support you, all those beautiful things, and make sure you leave a piece of advice for anybody right now, including me, who's either in the process of changing or pivoting. What would the advice be?

Speaker 2 54:42

Well, everybody can find me. I'm fortunate to have a distinctive last name Firemark. Gordon is pretty uncommon too. So gordonfiremarkcom is the website center of things for me, and you can find me on all social media as G Firemark, or Instagram is Gordon Firemark, and you know. Please sign up for my mailing list. I don't have anything to promote this instant.

Speaker 2 55:07

I do webinars for podcast creators fairly frequently, and there will be one coming up in October, and I do them, you know, every month or so up in October. And, and I do them, you know, every month or so. So, um, you know, follow me for more information about that. And, uh, I guess my one best piece of advice for folks out there creators um, think of it like a business, even if you're in it as a hobby. Treating your creative endeavors like a business because that's how the world is going to treat it as well is just going to serve you well. So do things the way businesses do them, get things in writing, have contracts, protect your intellectual property and have a strategic plan, maybe a five-year plan and a longer plan, so that you can always remember why you're doing it and what's next.

Speaker 1 55:56

I love that. Thank, thank you so much. And, by the way, uh, he has incredible templates. I still use some of his. So go check out his website and literally, if you go on google and just put gordon firemark, I noticed like he owns the google page, like from the entire it helps that there's no other gordon firemarks out there, but so it was like I was just like oh wow, because if you Google me you have to kind of click a few clips, but you know his was right there.

Speaker 1 56:22

So that's amazing. But, Gordon, thanks for hanging out with me this morning. We can finally say we have TalkSuite with TalkSheWippie on TalkSheWippie.

Speaker 2 56:34

Well, it's been a hoot as always Hang in with you, Paula. Well, it's been a hoot as always hanging with you, Paula, and I look forward to seeing you again real soon and recording.

Closing and Where to Find Gordon

Speaker 1 56:45

Thank you, shit Talkers, for tuning in and spending your valuable time with us. We appreciate you To connect with us more. Make sure you subscribe to our newsletter and catch all the shit-talking vibes before anybody else. You can subscribe to our newsletter and catch all the shit-talking vibes before anybody else. You can subscribe to our newsletter through our website, wwwtalkshitrepealcom, and on our merchandise website, wwwtalkshitrepealshop. And while you're there, feel free to shop away. Talk Sheet Repeal is available on all social media platforms with the handle TalkSheetWithP. Follow us and engage with us. Better yet, if you're feeling generous, give us a review on Apple Podcasts and or rate us on Spotify. You can also share a beer with me where my beer lovers at. I mean, what better way to support the movement than sharing a beer with me by buyingmeabeer at buymeacoffeecom? Thank you for listening, sharing, engaging and support in any way that you do. Remember, new episodes are out every Wednesday and for part two, if any, on Fridays. Let's talk and all listen to some shit. Happy shit talking.